The truth about building high-performing teams

Dave Heywood (00:24)
This is Marketing Careers Uncovered and I’m Dave Heywood People often think that the hard part of a career in marketing is getting that big break or hitting a huge milestone. What comes after that? How do you keep building, keep leading and keep people with you for the long haul? And that’s what today’s guest, Mick Rigby, knows about better than most.

He’s grown teams, that really stick together in an industry that loyalty usually burns out pretty fast. He’s led through the scrappy startup phase, through years of scaling, and he’s now inside the structure of a larger parent company, all while shaping a leadership style that actually works across very different contexts and styles. realities of retaining talent, where money isn’t necessarily always the lever.

The lessons that only really show up after years in the game and also a little bit of future gazing as well with some of the shifts that Mick is seeing coming down the track for marketers everywhere. Mick’s got a real front row view of what’s coming next and we’ll be delighted to get into that one. that in mind, Mick, do you want to say a quick hello and tell us what you’re up to at the moment?

Mick Rigby (01:29)
Yeah, nice one. Well, firstly, hello, Dave. So my name’s Mick Rigby. I am the founder and CEO of the business called Yodel Mobile. Now, Yodel Mobile has recently changed its name to Yodel Mobile by NP Digital because we were acquired in April of this year by a global agency

owned as you might know the guy Neil Patel, who is one of the legendary SEO gurus. So we work with brands and businesses globally who have an app and want to scale that or they want to launch their app.

We work with some of the biggest brands that you’re aware of. A lot of them will be sitting on your phone right now. So I am currently managing the transition from being a global specialist agency to being a global specialist agency as part of a huge and successful and fast growing global digital business.

Dave Heywood (02:27)
Brilliant, thank you. And that’s the perfect segue onto one of the first segments I really want to get into I think we often see the sale of a business as the big moment and ultimate goal in itself. But I guess what I’m really interested in is that transition piece and what really happens when after the sale, after the dust has settled and you’re still in the business and still at the helm.

What did you imagine life would be like afterwards and how was that matched up to reality? If it did.

Mick Rigby (02:56)
Yeah,

it’s a really good question. I guess, you know, for us as a business, and I think for any business that is in that position, or wishes to be in the position to sell or be acquired, is that you really need to be clear, 100 % clear, why you’re doing what you’re doing, i.e. selling some or all of your business to another organization.

What I mean by that is we knew we knew we were at a point that we needed to have greater backing, more global presence. And also we needed the support and advice of people that, you know, have have experience running far bigger organizations.

we were clear as to the kind of business that we needed to be part of from that perspective, but also very much a business that actually mirrored our values. A lot of the people that are at Yodel, have either worked with Yodel and have left or currently work now, have a particular way of working and the values that us as a business actually provide, which is

a very empathetic understanding people first. And I mean that in the right way is that, you know, we’re in a position sometimes that we say no to clients that we don’t believe will fit in to our organization. You know, we turn them away, you know, and that’s a really powerful thing to do. So we needed to be part of an organization which which mirrored our values in many, many ways. So that was

That was absolutely essential. So interestingly enough, now we’re at that position, we’re about five or six months in of being part of this bigger organization. There hasn’t been anything that has been particularly surprising. So, you know, it’s very much, guess, what we did anticipate it would be like, primarily because we’ve done a huge amount of groundwork beforehand. We’ve done a lot of dating.

Dave Heywood (04:55)
Yeah, I I’ve been on the receiving end of a couple of sales and integrations in my time. And, you know, there’s lots that can go well. And it’s really pleasing to hear that you’ve done a lot of due diligence. there any elements that I guess surprised you in terms of which were a little bit harder to adapt to than you initially anticipated, either yourself or the team at large?

Mick Rigby (05:21)
Yeah, I mean, that’s really interesting. I founded the business in 2007. Initially, it was just me and one other. So I’ve been very used to running and guiding a business exactly how I wanted it to be run and guided over the last 18 or so years. But I think the hardest thing for me to get my head around is actually not saying that I’m the owner of the business anymore.

All I can say now is I’m the founder and CEO. It’s no hardship because we’re really chuffed how things are going. But I guess for businesses that set up that are independent, they’re very often run by a typical entrepreneur that’s used to be able to getting their own way. And for me now and for the business as a whole,

because we are growing and growing really quickly now as part of a bigger organization, there are certain more robust processes that we need to follow. Things like building out our data security to absolutely level. We’re having to do all of that as you’d expect. Also just navigating being part of a bigger organization. Who are the people that we need to talk to to help us with this or who are the people we need to talk to to help them with that?

So navigation is something that I’m certainly having to adapt to very quickly.

Dave Heywood (06:41)
Yeah, surprises don’t always have to be negative. What surprised you in a positive manner that you weren’t quite expecting?

Mick Rigby (06:49)
Do you know just the amount of great people, you know, I suppose when you’ve been, focused in one particular area and you’ve been very much, it’s us, us against them, them being all the other agencies that we’re competing with in so many ways, just to be part of a bigger organization and, you know, being able to open up and have, proper conversations with individuals that can help and guide.

us as a business and the other individuals within our company. So that’s been really good, you know, just to be able to start formulating some of those relationships with other experts in different areas, you know, be they SEO or be they, you know, digital web user acquisition people, you know, the areas we tend not to work in. So, you know, just tapping into them and their knowledge of what’s working with what they do.

has been super, super interesting and will certainly be helping us develop some of the processes and areas that we are going to sort grow into over the next couple of years.

Dave Heywood (07:51)
Yeah, and you’re still at the start of that journey as well. And it sounds like you’ve taken a real positive set of first steps here. Is there anything that you didn’t expect to miss from, let’s call it pre-sale life,

Mick Rigby (08:07)
Yeah, know, that 100%, you know, 100 % responsibility, you know, there’s responsibility, and I thrive on that. I think now responsibility is more evenly shared across a few people rather than necessarily just me or my core executive. it’s something that, it’s something I guess that

is a positive. It is a positive, but you know, I’ve got to accept that now that it’s not just up to me on my shoulders, which, you know, I used to really, really thrive on that. You know, that’s the kind of thing that would get me up in the morning to, you know, to fight fires and, you know, make a change. The little guy fighting against the big guy.

Dave Heywood (09:03)
In an industry known for high churn and turnover, I’ve seen organizations, that struggle to keep people for 18 months sometimes. How have you kept your team together for the best part of a decade? What’s your secret?

Mick Rigby (09:20)
What’s the secret sauce? It’s something I’m really, really proud of. mean, I’m an neurodivergent, I’ve got dyslexia, and I’ve got ADHD. And because of that, I’m a hugely empathetic person. You know, if people are happy, I take on that positivity. If people are sad, I take that on

on myself. I think, you know, right back at the start, I wanted to create an environment that very selfishly, I was going to be the happiest I could be as an individual. So that need that needed me to surround my people, myself by people with people who are enjoying what they do. And therefore, the principle at the heart of our business has always been to understand the individuals that have coming in.

give them a path to success and growth, support them in every way you possibly can to allow them to do the best that they possibly are able to do, but also on a mental wellbeing position, if they’ve also got neurodivergences. And all those kind of elements are sort of wrapped up into that basic principle of

being very empathetic and understanding and putting myself into their shoes. And what I think one of the things that I’ve always, always tried to do is give people the opportunity to perhaps do things that they might not necessarily yet be ready to do, you know, and people can grow into them. And if you’re you’re if you are always doing that kind of thing, it gives individuals that

support and room to grow. And that’s something that we’ve done very, very well, I think. And to your point, yeah, absolutely. Most of my senior team have been with me for, you know, nine, 10 years or more. You know, some of those, some of the directors of the business started as interns, you know, and we’ve supported them all the way through. I also have a policy of that everybody’s got everybody else’s back.

So if anybody has a challenge, whatever that is, somebody within the organization will make time to help and support them with that business challenge or personal challenge where we can. So there’s a lot of support there. And I think it feeds back into the individuals. And those individuals that are with me and have been with me for a very long time are the kind of individuals that thrive on.

Dave Heywood (11:47)
your business is quite different today as it was when you first started. Has that approach to retention and development evolved over time or has that always run through the thread of the business?

Mick Rigby (11:59)
Yeah, I mean, we’re a specialist company. you know, we do things like App Store optimization or page user acquisition in the app space. There aren’t many there aren’t many people out there that have those skills. So when people join our organization.

nine times out 10, they’re coming into a mobile and app market without, you know, maybe with digital skills or SEO skills, but not necessarily apps or optimization skills. So we spend a lot of time working with those individuals to help train them up as quickly as they want to want to be trained. And that’s a really important point. You know, we’ve got a policy of people can grow at the speed that they want to grow. We would never put somebody in a position where

They’re stressed because they don’t have the skills to do that. But there might be other individuals that would want want that kind of stress. So we’ll support them going down that particular route. But what we’ve what we’ve really been. Focused on is building those skill sets for those individuals and then trying to retain those individuals by giving them the structure, the growth paths, paths, you know, the salaries, you know, and all the other benefits we have.

to encourage them to not just stay, but also support those people coming through. you know, most of the team at senior level have all come in at the bottom and have grown up. And I think that has been a really, really good way of maintaining the quality of what we provide because the learnings from the senior people have been passed down to, you know, the middle managers and they’re passing it down to the more junior people now.

who are then going to become the middle managers. you know, there’s that backbone of DNA that sits within the whole of the business. The only challenge with that kind of running a business that way is the slower speed of growth. So as a company, you have to accept that if you do put in place those kind of practices in terms of training, education and advancement, you’re not going to be able to go from

you know, 100 to 200 in the space of 12 months, you’re to go from 100 to 200 in the space of five years.

Dave Heywood (14:12)
curious about that commercial tension there. When it’s your business, your rules, whether you grow 10%, or 30%, that’s for you to decide and drive isn’t it?

Mick Rigby (14:26)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. you know, every year we push ourselves. So it’s a bigger target year on year. And pretty much every year we’ve hit that target, you know, but it’s a sensible target. It’s not an overreach target. And it’s not a target that means that, you know, we have to over expand.

and take on risk over and above what we’re prepared to do, you know, and get to a position the following year that if you do lose a big client or two, you know, you have to, you have to shrink in order to manage that. We’ve never had to do that. And I think again, that gives that gives that gives the organization as a whole, you know, the sense of trust that, you know, management have got their back and that builds loyalty both ways.

Dave Heywood (15:09)
So that’s a really nice rosy picture, but I’m sure lurking under there, there’s some moments over the years where retention and loyalty was really seriously tested. I’d be really keen to get into some examples of that and how you responded and adapted.

Mick Rigby (15:27)
Yeah, absolutely. I think as a smaller organization, it is always a lot harder. You know, we’re in a position now that we are seeing globally as one of, if not the leader in the space. You know, we have, we continually win awards for the quality of the work that we’re doing. you know, there’s a clear correlation between the quality of what we deliver as a company and

you know, the staff for one of the better way of describing the team and their competency, experience and ability that has grown over the years. So, you know, that correlation is really clear. So if we’re bringing somebody in now, they can see not just the quality, the reputation, the awards, you know, the case studies and the adulation that we get from a lot of a lot of the work that we’ve done for our clients. They also see.

you know, the quality of the team that they’re going to be working with, you know, and potentially see that that’s going to be a challenge. If I am going to work at this organization, you know, it’s going to be a challenge for me to be as good as I possibly can. However, these guys have got my back. So, you know, it takes a very determined and, you know, focused individual now to come into the business because they can see that they’re now part and parcel of something very exciting and successful.

10 years ago, 15 years ago, it was obviously a bit more of a challenge because we didn’t have that reputation. So a lot of the work that we had to do back then was done, I guess, on trust, which is, look, we’re here, we’re gonna get to there. You stay on this business, we will support you and help you get to senior manager director role. That is our promise to you. We’re not gonna bring people in above you. And we have never, ever done that.

it comes back to that trust way back, defining that trust and living what you

Dave Heywood (17:16)
Which

is all too often missed, missed really isn’t it? We can sometimes placate people, get through the next six months, another six months and then eventually someone just goes, you know what, fuck it. I’ve heard it too many times.

Mick Rigby (17:29)
Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. And you know, to your point, you know, maybe maybe in the early days, you know, the the what we were saying and what we were delivering wasn’t perhaps matching up. So, you know, like any like any good leader, you know, you have to learn by your mistakes

making sure that you’re true to what you say is absolutely essential. Now, individuals, you know, they might have a different focus, you know, they they might not be the right environment for them, they might want to leave and become a chef, you know, there’s there’s nothing you can do about that other than support them in their next journey. And again, that’s kind of, you know, by living and doing that kind of that kind of

support other individuals in the organization. Again, know that, we’re decent and focused on the success of those people, whether they’re in the company or not.

Dave Heywood (18:26)
And I’ve to countless leaders on here over the last few years. And one of the things that always comes through really strongly is that there’s no one singular leadership style that all leaders must plug into once they take up the mantle. You’ve gone through quite a few different contexts here from a startup founder scaling.

Mick Rigby (18:43)
Yeah.

Dave Heywood (18:51)
leading inside a corporate framework, they’re quite different contexts to inhabit from leadership perspective. I’ve been really interested to understand is your leadership approach significantly different from those early startup days to now and how has that had to change and adapt?

Mick Rigby (19:11)
Yeah, and I think, you know, your point there, change and adapt, you absolutely have to, you know, that as an organization grows, whether that’s in terms of the size of the number of people or the profitability and the revenue, or in terms of profile, you know, you have to you have to be live to that and you have to adapt accordingly.

I’m a great believer and I think I said it a little bit earlier on, know, there’s a in developing DNA, you know, principles, values, you know, culture, processes, they all have to sit, you know, at the centre of any organisation. And they have to grow and adapt accordingly, but they are the bedrock. Now, from a from from a style of leadership, you have to adapt to where you are within

the life stage on the life, the, you know, the lifetime of your growth. So right back in the day, you know, when we were a small organization, you know, my role wasn’t just, you know, HR, recruitment, strategy, client services, you know, you’re actually doing everything. But I was also very much the face of the agency. So, you know, going to talks, you know, standing up on stage, doing a lot more of this kind of stuff, you know, and.

What I’ve tried to do over the last five, six years is take a little bit of a back step and allow individuals that want to step more into the limelight to push them forward, to help build their profiles, to help build their recognition in the organization. And in doing that, it helps with confidence. It helps with the ability to talk to and have discussions with senior clients.

that you might be a little bit more nervous to do if you haven’t been thrust into that kind of environment. you know, that’s an area that’s really sort of changed for me. And, you know, I no longer have to do HR and recruitment. But what I do do now is, you know, I’m kind of the backstop and I’m the last person that looks at something to go yes or no. And

In doing that, again, you’re not micromanaging, you’re macromanaging and where people want to develop into those more senior roles, want to have more responsibility, I have to give them that. And that’s what we’ve very much done.

Dave Heywood (21:25)
Are leadership skills something that people are born with? Or are they skills that you can pick up and learn over time? Where do you set on that debate?

Mick Rigby (21:35)
well, I think, everybody is born with a set of skills. Those skills, well, whether they’re born with them or they learn those skills over their formative years, they have those skills. And I think you have to be in an environment, especially if you’re in leadership, you utilize those skills that you have to the best of their ability.

So it might be more organisational, it might be more creative, it might be more emotional and empathetic. And I very much sit within that middle one, you know, empathetic and emotional, but with a very sort of creative ideas generating innovative kind of mindset. you know, they

That is where that so they are the two areas that I really sort of focus and double down on when I’m managing individuals and when I’m, you I guess looking at what a leader leader means and does. That said, things that I’m not particularly good at, maybe organisational, maybe, you know, seeing a job, you know, seeing a project to the end, you know, that’s where I have.

in the past had to really sort of focus and, and learn techniques to be able to do those kinds of things in order to support from a leadership perspective. ⁓ but when you get to a certain stage and you know, your organization is big enough. What you, what you should be doing as you look at the rest of the team is to see that individual is great at sales. They can talk the hind legs off a horse.

That individual is fantastic at structuring data. You know, that’s where they need to be focused if they’re, you know, if they’re a plan of buy for instance. So, you know, as a leader, I think you have to be able to see and help and encourage people that have certain skillsets that might not be similar to yours to be able to do the best of what they can do in your organization. Pushing a square peg into a round hole is…

is very difficult and more often than not, it means that somebody’s gonna leave.

Dave Heywood (23:39)
Self-awareness is really, really important here, isn’t it? Being brutally honest with yourself about what you are good at and what you’re not and either developing some of those skills yourself or bringing together coalitions of people. I like to think we’re past the years of where the leader has to know everything and be the best.

at everything, but we still pile that pressure on ourselves to feel like because we’re sat at the top table or people are looking at us for guidance, that we have to be the oracle and know of all things.

Mick Rigby (24:20)
Yeah, yeah, you’re absolutely right. And I think one of the things that I’ve I have learned over the years, and it’s been hard, but to accept that, you know, you’re not good at everything. To accept that there are going to be people far better than you doing doing certain jobs and partaking of certain roles within an organization. But learning how to work.

with those individuals, whether at a colleague level or whether at a leadership level. And I think it’s really, really important for anybody, whether you’re managing one person, whether you’re managing a team of, you know, five, 10, or whether you’re running an organization, to understand that you cannot do everything, to be prepared to revert to individuals that are better at

certain things than you are to accept that, you know, there are decisions that are going to be made without your involvement, not necessarily at the right of the top senior level, but, in operational senses or in a client relationship. And in doing so, you’re empowering those individuals and therefore they will be better ultimately at what they do. But coming back to the point I came.

I was talking about right to the start is everybody needs to know that you’ve got their back. So, you know, even, even in the very toughest of days and you know, there are so many fires that are being fought at the organization. I always have time for people. always make time for people and I always try to keep a smile on my face, you know, which makes.

you know, the situation, if other people need to talk to you, they can come to talk to you because, you know, they might also have some challenges.

Dave Heywood (26:11)
You also mentioned a little bit earlier your neurodiversity. I’d be really intrigued to understand how that has influenced the way you lead and make decisions. Because not a lot of people are open about it.

Mick Rigby (26:25)
No, ⁓ no, no, they’re not. And I can understand why they don’t want to be. think, you know, if you look at ADHD as a whole, I think the stats at the moment are this probably six to 8 % of all people in the UK have, you know, levels of ADHD that, are recognised as, a real challenge.

you know, and it affects their life. If you’re starting an organization and you have dyslexia or autism or ADHD and you’re aware of it, bear in mind there’s an awful lot of people that aren’t aware that they have those particular ⁓ neurodivergent traits that, you know, they might want to keep it under wraps because other people could and often do have an issue with that. And

look down on that individual. So it’s a real challenge. You know, we’ve we’ve always been super supportive as you as you would expect. A lot of entrepreneur driven businesses are super supportive because a lot of entrepreneurs will have dyslexia or ADHD or something, something along those particular spectrums. So, there is a lot more, I think, understanding and support for

people that do think differently, who do have challenges where things might take a lot longer to deliver because they’re it far more complex because of the ways that their brain work.

Dave Heywood (28:00)
We can often feel, and I will hold my hands up, I’m guilty of this sometimes, that you can view some of these neurodiversity pieces like autism and ADHD as being negatives or challenges. But actually, there are certain contexts in where…

actually that’s really helpful. When you’re having to move fast and grow a business and have the ability to drop things because either they’re not a priority anymore or they’re not important. I guess also not being held back by that compulsion to finish something that you’ve started, that can really be helpful, can’t it?

Mick Rigby (28:36)
Mm. Mm.

Yes, it can as long as long as that thing that you should have finished, you know, isn’t the absolute, you know, the most important thing that needs to be done that particular week, you know, and there’s an organization called Made by Dyslexia. And it’s actually supported by Richard Branson, because he’s he also has dyslexia.

And it’s an organization that is focused on helping and supporting and encouraging individuals with dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyspraxia, and those similar neurodivergent challenges. Because those kind of individuals have benefit from things like the ability to see the big picture, the ability to work through a challenge.

in a different way to what somebody without those those neurodiverse challenges have. know, people that can join the dots can see patterns in numbers or they can read between the lines in documentation to actually understand what is really being asked and not necessarily what’s on black and white. Now, these kind of skills and more are very, very powerful skills.

not least the way that the world is actually changing now with AI starting to do an awful lot of the heavy lifting in life, know, doing a lot of the operational challenges, looking at, you know, I guess, taking data and, you know, bringing out the insights, all those mechanical kind of skill sets, which have been absolutely essential and will continue to be essential moving forward.

They’re the ones that will start having been being impacted more heavily with AI as a whole. However, the other skills that, you neurodivergence have in terms of seeing data, big picture, you know, problem solving in a very different way, they’re going to become, I believe, more impactful and more important. So I think, I think, you know, whereas,

you know, neurodivergent individuals have always been challenged in the work environment to the extent where a lot of very capable people haven’t been able to grow and benefit to the extent that they could and should have. The way the world’s changing, there will be more opportunity to the extent that I would be very surprised if we don’t see more of those individuals in very senior roles.

over the next five, 10, 15 years as organizations really understand where they can make an impact.

Dave Heywood (31:12)
Yeah, that’s really, really interesting. Are there any aspects of your leadership style or approach that are absolutely non-negotiable, non-movers, despite changing context and moving into new ownership? What are the things that you absolutely stick by?

Mick Rigby (31:32)
Yeah, I, know, it all comes down to this DNA, you know, for me, everybody that’s in Yodel Mobile has bought into the values, the culture, you know, the ways of working and that DNA is, will continue to be the bedrock of what we do. Change is inevitable, you know, in order to grow and succeed, you have to adapt. So.

You know, there will be different ways of doing things that will come in. There will be processes that we have to adapt to, you know, which will be a little bit painful because you’ve got to spend time learning them and adapting. However, you know, they are that that will happen. That is inevitable. But that bedrock of values, culture process that we have as a company, the ability to say no.

and turn clients away where we need to, will always remain, you know, as long as, I suppose, the individuals in my organization are still, you know, in senior roles within the organization as we grow. Because I believe that they have adopted and adapted their working ways to embrace those principles that…

I think as an organization I put in place, you know, 15 years ago.

Dave Heywood (33:01)
your vantage point over the years gives you a really, really good front row seat and a long-term view of what’s coming down the line in the industry and for marketers in general. So let’s get our big crystal ball out. I’m afraid I don’t have a moody lighting or anything to jazz it up a bit, but use your imagination. Use that creative side of your brain.

Mick Rigby (33:19)
Not long.

Dave Heywood (33:25)
I guess from where you’re sitting now, what big shifts are you seeing coming in the next five to 10 years? I think you’ve touched on some already, but let’s develop that a little bit further.

Mick Rigby (33:34)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I think as an organization, we’ve been really, really good at seeing trends and adapting to them. You know, we wouldn’t be able to, we wouldn’t still be here today if we hadn’t seen what the next thing is or what the next big challenge in the out space when scan came in and Apple brought, you know, its own tracking in there and, know, app acquisition

process changed completely overnight. So I think we’ve always been pretty good at spotting them and adapting to them as they come in. I mean, clearly, AI is going to be absolutely front and centre of what these changes are going to be. And that, think, I think will mean that, you know, we’re going to see

more of a shift to perhaps more creative intelligence, know, first party data strategies, know, brand led growth in the app world, you know, which perhaps wasn’t as prevalent, you know, over the last few years, you know, I’m a great believer in history. think looking back helps you look forward. And even though you’re in a very different world as you look forward,

You know, some of the principles, some of the practices, some of the cause and effect of what happened 15, 20, 30 years in an industry. And I’m talking about advertising industry. If you understand what happened then and how the business adapted, it puts you in a good position to adapt for the future. So for instance, creative as a whole, you know,

even two or three years, in the digital and app space, creative was being determined by the effect it was having on generating a click. And the creative that was successful, you’re using it in the likes of say, Meta or Google. What the tools would do at Meta and Google is they would then start delivering more of that creative in those kinds of environments to generate more clicks. Now that doesn’t happen anymore.

to the extent that it did because of data challenges, third party data, data protection. So in order to be effective now in those kinds of challenges, you have to be not just quick on your feet, but you have to really understand what in that creative is being, is the driver of the response. Is that creative also building up a stronger relationship? It’s not just generating a click. So there needs now to be a step back.

looking at what messaging you’re putting to the audience in the style it’s coming in. And what’s emotive? What is actually generating that relationship? And that is exactly what was going on 20 years ago in the creative world in advertising. So to me, there’s not quite a full circle, but there’s very much an impact.

from that. So if you understand those principles and the value of strategy and positioning, communication, you’re going to be far stronger in creative moving forward than if you’re just accepting what the machines and the tools used to do for you. So look back to look forwards, I think is a really important part of that.

Dave Heywood (36:36)
It does feel like over the last particularly decade or so that we all collectively fell down a tactical rabbit hole and just went further and further and further forward. Where to your point, we just talked about clicks and impressions and now it’s a call for us all just to think bigger and broader and really get into the heads of our customers and the markets that we operate in. What does it really take to stand apart?

What issues do we need to own in the market? The stuff that AI still isn’t and probably will never be as good at as a really sensible, clued up human being.

Mick Rigby (37:17)
Yep, yep, you’re absolutely right. think, you know, human skills, you know, these are gonna be relationship skills. These are, these are gonna be so important from a business, from a business point of view over the next few years and beyond. And I think the challenges that, you know, most businesses have had, certainly sort of in the service industry for the last five years through COVID, there’s a lot less.

⁓ personal interaction, a lot of it goes on as it’s going on today over, you know, over the laptops and through zoom and teams. And I believe that, you know, if you started your career five years ago, you’ve missed out unless you’re in the office all the time, you’ve missed out on a lot of those, that the kind of the emotional learning, the relationship learning that you would have got 10 years ago when you’re in the office five days a week. And

That’s going to be a bit of an issue as a lot more of the executional tasks that businesses do are going to be taken over by the robots. Because it’s the individuals that have more human relationships, have more of an empathetic understanding, are able to sit down with a client or a prospect or an opportunity.

and negotiate and get to position that works for everybody, they are gonna be so, so important. And if you haven’t built up those skills, then it’s gonna be very difficult for individuals, when and as the world continues to evolve and change. The business.

Dave Heywood (38:50)
Yeah, and those

skills are just as important with your working in-house and working across different departments and teams. The ability to bring coalitions of people together who might not necessarily agree or have differing or competing priorities. AI’s not going to solve that. Again, we come back to the value of the human being here. well, is that where you would point if we have

plenty of ambitious marketers listening to this and thinking, right, okay, that’s all good. That’s all good, Mick. I get where that’s all going. How should I prepare for this new era? Is that what you would generally point people towards going, learn those skills and you’ll set yourself up really well?

Mick Rigby (39:35)
Absolutely.

Absolutely. I would say strategic thinking, big picture thinking, creativity, creative thinking, problem solving but considering different solutions. I think consumer psychology, understanding how people think, because I don’t think AI

is certainly not gonna, is not gonna be there in the next sort of five, eight years. Storytelling, you know, that’s a really core part of relationship building, sales, communication to promote an activity. So storytelling and learning those kind of abilities. Human interaction, relationship building, they’re all.

absolutely central, I think, to success, the future success of any individual in what is going to be a very challenging 10, 15, 20 years. I think also other practical things like the ability to adapt quickly. You know, it’s very easy for all of us to settle back on the things that we are good at.

and we know how to do. So educating yourself, continually learning, being able to adapt, all of those kinds of things are going to underpin, you know, your ability or anyone’s ability to continue successful growth in their career.

Dave Heywood (40:53)
Brilliant. reflecting on some of your lessons learned from building, selling, and still leading the business. If you had to pick out…

a leadership decision you’d make differently if you could rewind. What would that be?

Mick Rigby (41:07)
Absolutely. And I won’t name names, but there have been one or two clients that we as an organization took on many, many years ago that we shouldn’t have taken on, which, you know, over, over extended, you know, the team that perhaps didn’t necessarily fit with our values as a company.

you know, and we were, we were accepting, I guess, strategies and, you know, direction from, from those particular businesses, which we believed were wrong, and ultimately, they were wrong. And, and they just, it just creates resentment. And, you know, an environment that’s very, very difficult to, to

to work in. So and it is very, very difficult to say this to people. But, you know, because it’s it’s it’s again, it’s a real challenge for them to do. having the ability to say no, certainly when it looks like there’s an opportunity on the horizon, but say no, if you really don’t think that that is the right kind of business or the right kind of people that you’re to be working with.

You know, and it has caused problems and does cause problems for other organizations if you’re constantly saying yes.

Dave Heywood (42:21)
Is there a piece of advice from your early career that still applies and you still hold dear today?

Mick Rigby (42:27)
Yeah, I mean, I worked, you know, prior to setting up the businesses that I’ve done, I’ve worked with some very, very good managers. And, you know, one of what there are a number, but one I’m just going to leave you with is, you know, never burn bridges. there’s always going to be conflict, there’s always going to be challenges, there’s always going to be individuals that perhaps you don’t get on with as well as others.

don’t take rejection to heart. don’t fight back and cause consternation, don’t hurt other people, and all of that sort of wraps into the don’t burn bridges because people that you’re dealing with and working with now, if you’re in a small, small organization or even a big organization, the world’s a very small place, you know, invariably.

one or two of those people you’ll come across later in your career. So always try to remain amicable and friendly with people.

Dave Heywood (43:20)
And finally, if anyone here listening wants to be leading a team in, say, five years, I know we’ve talked about lots of different attributes and skills earlier, but what’s the first step you would recommend that someone takes? What can someone do tomorrow?

Mick Rigby (43:37)
I think.

I would say try and be more empathetic. That would be the first thing to do Because if you start by understanding the people that are working with and for you, and even the people that are senior to you, beyond just an operational perspective, what they deliver in work context, if you understand a little bit more about what drives them and why they’re making the decisions they’re making.

or why they react to or, you know, certain suggestion or instructions that you’re giving them, you start learning more about people. It’s this psychology thing. And as you understand and learn more about people and what makes them tick, you’re in a position to help and either guide them or, you know, from a sales perspective, you know, what’s actually going to press their buttons to make, make them make a purchase. So I would say

double down on that. It makes you a better person to be more empathetic as well. But it’s a real skill.

Dave Heywood (44:34)
Brilliant, I think that’s all we’ve got time for today. But thank you so much, Mick. Lots of stuff there to percolate in the, and had some real good lessons on leadership in terms of really understanding the direction, really supporting and living the values and culture that we set and talk about. And particularly plenty to think about in terms of the future as well and how.

We all need to become more strategic, developing some of that big picture thinking, but not losing that empathy along the way. That’s come through really, really strong for me. There isn’t any particular one leadership style, but what seemed to have worked for you really well, and the proof is in the pudding given the tenure of your leadership team, is that really understanding what people are trying to do.

achieve and lifting everyone up on that basis, it’s really paid dividends. So thank you for sharing that.

Mick Rigby (45:31)
Absolutely.

Pleasure. It’s been good chatting to you, Dave. Thank you.

Dave Heywood (45:36)
Brilliant, and also thanks to you as well for listening. If you enjoyed today’s conversation, don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, or share it with a friend or colleague. And we’ll see you next time.